This episode of the I Witness podcast spotlights a compelling story that navigates the often murky waters of mental health and faith. We feature an open-hearted conversation with Christy Boulware, who courageously shares her battle with severe panic attacks, fear, and anxiety. From feeling like she was dying to nearly losing hope, her journey is an intense one, full of desperate moments.
However, amidst the tumult, Christy discovered a lifeline in an unexpected place. This interview will explore her transformative journey from the depths of despair to a place of hope and healing. Whether you’re grappling with similar issues or seeking insights into mental health from a faith-based perspective, Christy’s candid discussion offers relatable experiences, wisdom, and a testament to the healing power of faith.
Kelly: Welcome to the I Witness Podcast. I’m your host, Kelly Jo Wilson, and this is the show for women who struggle to accept their worth but want to embrace their gifts and share their witness for Jesus. We have a great show today about overcoming fear and anxiety when you feel powerless. Our guest is my friend Christy Boulware.
Christy is an author, speaker, and podcaster, but first, a passionate follower of Christ. She’s also the wife of a hunky man named Troy and a mom of three beautiful children. With a deep desire to free women and teens from the chains of fear and anxiety, Christy founded and currently leads the not-for-profit Fearless Unite.
Through conferences, workshops, retreats, bible studies, and devotionals, Christy speaks and rights about drastically decreasing the alarming statistics of anxiety in our world. Welcome to The I Witness Podcast, Christy. I’m so happy you’re here.
Interview with Christy Boulware about her panic and anxiety disorder
Christy: Kelly, thank you for having me. We have an important conversation to tackle today, don’t we?
Kelly: Yes, absolutely. I love your mission and what you’re doing. I love that you’re reaching out to women and teens about this pressing issue. Fear and anxiety have been rampant, especially in the past three years since the pandemic.
There’s a heightened awareness, which as a nurse, I can say that I actually appreciate. I feel like there was such a stigma in the past of anybody struggling and having these different thoughts.
I appreciate the awareness nowadays, but I still feel like it can be so much more robust. That’s why I adore what you’re doing.
Why don’t you tell the listeners about your journey, background, and journey with Jesus through your panic and anxiety disorder?
What did your journey look like?
A surprising wake-up call
Christy: I grew up a Catholic and like to tell people I was a C E O Christian, which is Christmas, Easter only. That was my journey, and I’m sure somebody is listening on the other side, saying yes, I grew up that way too.
God was important to me, but I didn’t need him. I didn’t rely on him. It wasn’t a surrender in any way, shape, or form. So really, because I like to say that I was superwoman, I was kicking butt, taking names, climbing the corporate career ladder, doing great for myself, and had always just gone after success and accolades and titles.
Throughout high school and then my college career, I was moved into traveling to New York City to try to make it big on Broadway. I was always chasing after something that left me with nothing, truly.
It wasn’t until I was about 25, in 2011, that I had my first panic attack on the sunny beaches of Cancun.
I was just sipping on a fruity drink, and at that time, I was not committed to following Jesus at all.
I was reading a gossip magazine, and out of nowhere, I just had this shortness of breath and impending doom. I had to get up and walk, and I didn’t know it, but I experienced my first panic attack.
Mental illness doesn’t look the same for everyone
I was a corporate sales director, medical sales, and workaholic. My job was everything to me. When I landed back in my hometown after a nice vacation and opened my email, I missed 200 emails.
I freaked out. How am I going to get all this work done?
Then the weirdest thing happened. I started getting black dots in my eyes and paralysis on the right side of my body. I call it paralysis, but it was like tingling. It was almost like weird tingling feelings. Have you ever stomped your brakes when somebody cut you off, and then suddenly you feel a jolt of adrenaline go through you? It’s a tingly pins and needles feeling.
That’s the feeling that I had in my body. You want to shake it off and question what is going on.
Panic and anxiety took over, and it got worse
It just got worse.
When I got home, I started having mini panic attacks. I didn’t know what they were, but I couldn’t sit still.
My chest felt extremely tight. I was having GI issues, and this went on for several days. It got to the point where I had paralysis on the right side of my body.
So, it was no longer the tingling. It was no movement. I couldn’t feel it.
I called my primary care physician in the middle of the night, and he says, “Christy, I think you’re having a stroke. You need to go to the emergency room. Right now.”
At that point, Kelly, any peace or anything is completely gone when a doctor tells you you’re having a stroke.
So, of course, my husband rushes me there, and they do the whole nine yards. They admit me to the hospital and do an MRI, cardiac screening, and all the tests you can possibly do. A day later, the doctor says, “Hey, Christy, you’re okay. Everything checked out just completely fine.”
You wish they would say something different at that moment because you feel like you’re dying.
“I felt like I was dying”
I literally felt like I was dying.
There was no way I was okay … to the point where I wanted to punch him in the face. I’m like, “There’s no way. Check the test again. This can’t be possible. I feel like I’m dying.”
He looked at me and said, “Christy, you’ve got panic and anxiety, and that’s what’s going on right now. I’m going to write you a prescription for Xanax,” but sent me home. I had to follow up with my primary care physician.
It snowballed completely out of control afterward, to the point where I had back-to-back panic attacks, and my body had a nervous breakdown.
That’s the beginning of my journey of learning how to figure out fear, panic, and anxiety and overcome it.
Kelly: It’s so funny that you said that you wished he would’ve said something different because, in reality, the last thing you want is for the doctor to say you’re having a stroke.
But there is a certain comfort when he gives you the answer. It’s almost a tangible thing, right?
You know how you’re feeling. I mean, for days you experienced this. So for the doctor to say here’s a prescription for one medication and send you home … it turns your world upside down.
Feeling hopeless without answers
Is that how you felt? Like, what are you going to do now? You had to figure it out now, right?
Christy: Yes, and that’s why I’m so passionate about this work because I felt hopeless when the doctor just looked at me. God love him. He was doing the best he could. He was doing what he was told to do.
They don’t have time to sit down with you and go, “Hey. How are you really feeling, and do you know your thoughts matter?”
They don’t have time to counsel you, teach you, and educate you on what fear, panic, and anxiety is, what it does to your body, and what the medication will do to help you.
They don’t, so they give you these things, and you walk out of there thinking, “Wait a minute. What’s next? What do I do now?”
The worst of the panic and anxiety was yet to come
That was truly the journey. The hell I experienced after I went home from the hospital was worse than when I first went. The panic attacks kept coming and coming, and I know now that my body was stuck in flight or flight.
Because of the fight or flight, I had back-to-back panic attacks. But I didn’t know why that was happening to me. I’m the kind of person that wants you to tell me why, and then I’ll understand. Teach me what this medicine is going to do to my body. But until you teach me, I won’t trust you, and I won’t take it.
Another part of my journey was learning what antidepressants do and why they are helpful. In my darkest moments, I had back-to-back panic attacks, hadn’t slept in weeks, and had hair falling out of my head. I was losing weight rapidly. I had suicidal thoughts, Kelly. I didn’t think I was going to make it out of that.
The darkness was overwhelming
The darkness was so bad. The kingdom of darkness whispered to me, “You’re never going to get out of this. This is going to be your life forever. Why don’t you just use those guns?”
My husband kept hunting guns in the corner of our bedroom, and they weren’t loaded. Still, it was just this visual representation of what could happen if I went ahead and just did it because, honestly, the hell that I was going through the torment.
I mean, I don’t wish panic and anxiety on anyone. It is straight from the pits of hell.
It’s so debilitating, awful, and so scary that I couldn’t catch my breath. I would have one, I would have a minute, and then another one would come. I liken it to like a marathon. It was like I would run a marathon, be done, and then another one would happen.
It sounds dramatic, but anybody listening on the other side who has been through a panic attack is saying, “I know what you mean. I know what that means.”
Imagine having a hundred of them back-to-back for three weeks straight. It was awful.
The torment was almost worse than death
Kelly: It sounds, it sounds awful. So for three weeks, you were having this. I’m so sorry you had to go through that, Christy. As you said, it’s torment. It’s just utter torment.
Looking at this visual of a gun and the lies you’re hearing in your mind, like this influence, as if that’s a solution.
It’s a complete lie and just attacking you.
So what would you say was the moment that you felt any peace or real solution was coming?
What did it take for you after that time to actually come out of that?
What stopped it or at least halted it enough for you to say, “No, this, I have to get help for this.”
Two miracles brought hope
Christy: Two what I call mini miracles took place. One was when I was in my bathroom and knew this wasn’t normal. Now, I realize I just told you all that I was having back-to-back panic attacks. So you might think I’m crazy for saying this, but I was in my bathroom, and I heard this still, small voice say to reach out to a woman I had not heard or seen from in about seven years.
She was a college roommate of mine. It was a peaceful voice. It was a reassuring voice, and I knew. Even though I was not a follower of Jesus at that point, I knew it was God. I knew it was God leading me.
So, I reached out to this woman and found out she had been hospitalized and gone through the exact same thing that I was going through.
She was three years ahead of me, and poured wisdom over me. She told me books to read. She told me to take my medication from the doctor. But the most important thing she said to me was, “Christy. You will not get through severe panic and anxiety disorder without a real relationship with Jesus Christ.”
Surrendering your panic and anxiety to God
That was a moment where I was like, I’ll do whatever it takes, whatever God asked me to do. This is hell. Please get me out of it.
After that, I had a moment of surrender where I was down on my knees, looking up at a little cross. That, up until this point, was just a symbol. It meant nothing to me.
I look up at this cross, and I’m down on my knees, and I say, “God, please help me. I surrender.”
Now, Kelly, I didn’t know what I was saying at that point. It was desperation. I surrendered.
“I promise to dedicate my life to you if you will just get me through this. Please, God, please.” That was my surrender moment.
That was my moment of okay, God, I’m not in charge. I’m not superwoman. I realized that my superwoman cape was strangling me, and I needed to lay it at the feet of Jesus. That was my surrender moment.
An unexpected blessing
That evening, the coolest thing happened. My husband came in, and he prayed over me. Now, here’s what’s important.
My husband and I had never prayed together as a married couple ever. Again, he felt the same way. He grew up in a much deeper relationship with Jesus than I did. But we didn’t have a problem with God.
We just didn’t need him until we did.
The moment when he came home and realized I had blankets over the hunting guns. He said, “Hey, what’s that all about?”
I said, “I was tempted to use them,” and fell apart in his arms.
He hugged me and said oh my gosh. He realized he couldn’t fix this. He got wise counsel from godly men, who told him, “You need to pull your wife in and pray over her.”
So he did. He prayed over me that night.
That was the first night in three weeks that I slept and was able to keep some food down, and that was my turning point.
That’s when hope started to come in, and I realized that I would get through this, but I needed to surrender to Jesus first.
Letting go and giving it to God when it’s impossible
Kelly: That is so powerful, and I thank you so much for sharing this with us and being vulnerable because it’s so hard. Especially for somebody like you. You identified yourself as a workaholic and wanted to have this control and do your own thing.
For having that kind of mentality and wanting to figure out the solutions to whatever’s happening, to say, “I didn’t really need God” and “I didn’t have a relationship with him,” then to surrender … for somebody who’s so used to figuring it out on their own and then to lift it up to him fully is very difficult. Very, very difficult.
I totally understand that. That’s I am wired as well especially being a wife and mom. We want everybody to be okay, and it’s all very well intended. You just want to take care of everybody and be able to do whatever you can do.
But that surrender, giving it up to him, holding your hands, and letting go is scary. It may not be as scary as what you’re experiencing, but it’s still pretty scary because you don’t know the outcome. You don’t know what his will is going to show you.
Struggling to let God be strong when we are weak
I think he wants us to take that step. He wants us to let him be strong when we can’t and for us to rely on him fully. I love that your husband prayed over you. That is amazing and beautiful, especially if that’s not something you guys really did.
That is such an amazing picture of the two of you coming together in your faith and giving it all, and laying it at Jesus’ feet, laying it at God’s feet.
That’s just beautiful. I love that you started to see hope.
After that, I was going to ask how did you fully surrender. Sometimes it is your spouse or somebody close to you to help. So I love that he worked within your husband too.
So what happened after that? So after you started to see a bit of hope and peace and, my goodness, I love that God just led you to this woman who has such wisdom for you.
Do you feel like you were going well for a while, and then you had a couple of setbacks? What did the journey look like afterward? The road to recovery, if you will.
Recovery was on the horizon
Christy: The road to recovery was about 18 months, and I say it took me my whole life to get into this mess. I’m so grateful that it was an 18-month recovery process .
Then I actually felt like a normal human being again. I had to go through intense Christian therapy. I did take the medication, and I’m so grateful that I did. After those 18 months, I realized I was doing well enough to start weaning off the medication.
So many people ask me, are you still on medication? I’m not, but it’s okay if you still are. I think that people need to understand that.
There’s much work that needs to be done, and my personal conviction is that if you’re going to take antidepressants, it needs to be with therapy as well so that you can really get to the root of it.
I had a wise primary care physician. Part of my journey after a hospital visit is that you have to follow up with your primary care physician. When I did that, I was so out of control with panic in his room that I couldn’t even sit to get my vitals done.
A diagnosis of panic and anxiety disorder didn’t bring instant relief
That’s how anxious I was. He asked me all these questions, saying, “Christy, how’s your marriage? How’s your children? Is everybody else healthy? Are you having any financial issues?”
I said, no, doc. No, no, no. My life is great. I’m making tons of money. My husband’s amazing. My children are healthy. I have no reason to be panicked.
They still had paper records at this time, and thumbing through the papers, he looked at them, and said, “Okay, how many hours do you work a week?”
Then I’m proud, right? I thought being busy was a badge of honor.
So I say, “I’m a workaholic. It’s like 80 hours a week.”
He said, “You have severe panic and anxiety disorder, Christy.”
Facing the truth about recovery from panic and anxiety
I thought, wait, what? No, not me. I’m the girl that’s got it all together. There’s no way I have this.
He looked at me with so much wisdom. He literally says, “Christy, I’m going to give you some medication, and it will help. But if you don’t go home, do the work, and figure out how you got into this mess and why you’re here today, then here’s what will happen.
You will keep coming back to my office, and I will have to keep increasing your prescription until I can’t give you any more help. So I suggest you really go home and do the hard work.”
At that point, his lips were moving, but everything from that moment on, was a blur.
I thought, “How did I get here? How did I get here to a severe panic and anxiety disorder.”
That was my 18-month journey, going home and understanding fear and anxiety, who God is, and why he is important. Questioning why I am so obsessed with the applause and approval of men, success, titles, achievements, and money.
Taking a real look inside yourself to discover why
Getting to the root within yourself is half the battle
Why does all that stuff matter to me? Why am I chasing after it?
I had to deconstruct that and figure out how I got into the mess. That was the therapy- taking the medication and diagnosing my soul issues. Getting to the deep-rooted parts from my childhood, why success was so important to me, and why I was trying to prove my worth to the world.
Why does that matter?
I had to do a deep dive that for about 18 months.
Kelly: Wow. I love that your physician told you that because I feel like it’s just so real. Even if you didn’t know what he meant, at that moment, you already saw that it would be a journey.
But it’s just so true. As a nurse, I have seen many situations where we try to equip people. But it’s hard when it comes to panic, anxiety, and different disorders or things like that.
I love that he said he could do certain things, but it won’t be enough.
That’s why I love that you said it was the medicine and the therapy.
You also said something great about medicine and therapy. It’s like God and science work together. They don’t have to be independent of one another.
Sometimes there’s a little bit of a stigma about praying yourself out of it, even within a Christian community.
Praying yourself out of panic and anxiety isn’t the only answer
Why can’t it just be your faith?
Because God absolutely works miracles every day, healing still occurs. Some people are fully healed from horrible things they’ve gone through. But other people aren’t.
God created science. He is the father of all creation. He created all this together, and I feel like there is a real blessing to be had with many therapies and different things to help you do that work.
Why don’t you talk about what you think is that healthy balance between your faith and the medication?
Christy: If someone would’ve come to me while I was having back-to-back panic attacks, suicidal thoughts, not being able to eat or sleep, and would’ve walked in and said, here’s a Bible, read your Bible, pray more. I would’ve been so deeply wounded.
Because I couldn’t. I physically could not. I couldn’t read my Bible.
My brain was so stuck in overdrive that I couldn’t even pray. So, I want our faith community to hear that prayer and scripture are important. I believe in it 100%.
I believe if God wanted to, in his sovereignty, come down and erase every panic attack I was having and heal my out-of-control body, he could have done it in a second.
I believe our God is that powerful.
God has the power, but His will might be different than ours
However, he chose not to do that for me. He chose to walk me through the problem of panic and anxiety so that I could understand his promises.
That’s how my journey went down. I don’t think I would be where I am today. My faith would not be as strong if I didn’t go through that trial because now my pain is my purpose. I get to turn around and help people overcome fear and anxiety.
So with the faith part of it, there’s also a physical part of it. We’re body, soul, and spirit, right?
The physical parts of our bodies matter. The science behind it was that I was overworking and overusing my body for my entire life. I was a workaholic and not dealing with unresolved conflict, having tons of pride in my life, thinking about me, myself, and I.
Years of that created the actual nervous breakdown that I had.
My body was stuck in fight or flight. So, on the sunny beaches of Cancun, when I was resting, my body said, huh, this is weird. I’ve never felt rest before. So it looks as if it’s a threat. That threw my body into overdrive.
That was the actual science that was happening in my body. Now I could take some medication to calm all of that down. I can believe and wait for a miracle. I can pray.
Blessings come in different forms
But what if I just do all of that together? Because together, that will help me find the healing I need. The balance … if I sat on a teeter-totter right now, and it was just me on that teeter-totter, and I was jumping up and down trying to enjoy that teeter-totter.
You’d be like, Hey, Christy, do you want me to join that? Because you’re going to have a lot more fun if we teeter-totter together, right?
That’s what the medication was for me. My medication helped balance out my body so that I could return to the enjoyment I needed and the life I needed. So I could have the mental fortitude to understand what was going on and work on my spiritual life.
For that, I’m incredibly grateful. But, I just feel like we need to have a more holistic approach to the mental health world.
We need to understand that the medication, can work. Now, here’s where it gets a little tricky. I also feel like we over-prescribe antidepressants because we need to get to the bottom of our crap.
We need to get to the bottom of what’s really happening in our lives. So we can’t just go to the doctor, say, throw me an antidepressant, and then put a bandaid over what’s happening in our life.
That’s why I think my doctor was such a godsend, because he told me, I’m going to give you this, and it will help. But if you don’t go home and do the work, it won’t help you anymore.
Mental health support for panic and anxiety has different forms
That’s the thing that we’re missing. We’re missing that therapy part of it.
He’s like, “Hey, I’ll give you the medicine, it’s going to help you, but will you go home, work through your wounds, work through your unforgiveness, work through your bitterness, work through all the things that are creating you to run after achievement, success, and accolades? Those things matter.
Work through that, and then you can have complete healing in your life.
Kelly: Oh yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. I have absolutely seen that, having worked in a hospital. I used to work with transplant patients.
We passed the most individual medications per patient than any other floor in that hospital. Even more than the ICUs, believe it or not. There would be patients getting 30 pills at once. It’s kind of the nature of it, suppressing your immune system.
But each pill helps with different things, such as you may not feel depressed. But we must be intentional with what we’re putting into our bodies.
But the over-prescription, I feel, is because sometimes people want an answer. On the other side, health professionals want to give that answer.
I think that it’s well intended, too, to be able to say let me try this medication for you. Maybe that’ll help.
We are mind, body, and spirit, and the goal is to balance
But in reality, there is a balance, mind, body, and spirit. There’s nothing that’s going to take away the pain completely, and you’re not going to have to do any kind of work.
Nothing on the market does that unless you are going to be a zombie throughout life. That’s not in the cards. Even that is going to have repercussions.
I think it’s very much a combination, the balance. You described it so well with the teeter-totter.
I love that so much because it’s just true. I hope somebody listening today takes that to heart, hears that, and feels better. Because so many people I’ve talked to think their life has no purpose and are down on that depressive cycle.
It makes it really hard for them to want to do the work, but it’s also where that balance comes in. Maybe getting certain medications to give you a boost to help you feel worth it.
Many women who listen to this podcast struggle with feeling worthy enough for Jesus and his acceptance.
It is such a dark, dark place it can take you. I’ve known a lot of people that get in that place, too. There’s nothing and no one that knows your heart like God. He’s the one that really knows your heart, and knows exactly how to meet you in that place.
God puts people in your path to help you
He does put people in your path. I love that he put that woman in your path and told you to reach out to her, your husband, your physician, and all those people to help. Help along the journey because it’s not easy for sure.
That’s one of the reasons I love that you’re here today talking with me because it’s a journey.
The more people that use their pain for their purpose, we can really try to help one another, I think that’s the ultimate goal.
What would you say is one takeaway from your experience that you would want to share with the woman listening to this?
If a woman is struggling with the same thing you had gone through, what is that one takeaway you would give to help her try to see the light and let her know that hope is coming?
A reminder for when you feel unworthy and burdened
Christy: I think it’s so beautiful that you minister to women that feel unworthy. Because I think so much of this stems back to our worthiness.
I was chasing after all the wrong things because I wanted to seem worthy and whoever’s eyes. I think so much fear and anxiety stems from us chasing after something that only God can give us.
I just want to remind the precious woman that’s listening on the other side that you are worthy, loved, and have a purpose.
You are fearfully and wonderfully made. God wants to use you. You are anointed. You are cared for. There is something on the other side of the pain that you’re going through that someone else needs to be comforted by.
Comfort someone with the same comfort that God has given you. You matter. You have value. That’s what I want you to hear today.
Kelly: That is so beautiful. Thank you so much. It’s just so impactful. I usually ask my guests, Christy, is there a verse of scripture that really carried you through this?
Was there one that really impacted you you’d like to share?
Having God’s word, even just one verse, can anchor you in Him. It can remind you because sometimes, especially in fight or flight, our minds go crazy, and we can’t focus.
God’s word can anchor you
Was there a verse that helped you, or even a book of the Bible?
Christy: I’m going to give you a little story before I answer your question.
So I had a medical procedure happen very recently. I still have what I call aftershocks.
After a major earthquake, there are little aftershocks that take place. So I had my major earthquake, which was my nervous breakdown. Then every now and then, I’ll have an aftershock, which is a panic and anxiety attack. So just recently, I’m having a medical procedure, and I’m having a little panic attack.
I go up to my closet to pray and say, “Lord. I don’t want to be scared so much. Why am I always so scared? Please, Father, talk to me. Help me, comfort me, calm me down right now.”
And in his beautiful, still, small voice, I hear, “Daughter, I don’t dangle suffering over my children.”
Wow.
The scripture that rose up in my heart was just for God not to give you a spirit of fear. But of power, love, and sound mind.
So now I can recognize fear and say, no, God didn’t give that. When I’m freaking out about this medical procedure and what the results may be, and could it be cancer? What if it’s this, and what if it’s that?
I remember, daughter, God doesn’t dangle suffering over me. That spirit of fear that’s coming over me is not from the Lord. When I feel fear and don’t feel peace, I can directly understand that that fear is not from the Lord.
How to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy fears
I just say it to myself, for God did not give me a spirit of fear for God, did not give me a spirit of fear for God, did not give me a spirit of fear.
If I’m feeling fear, then I know it’s not from Jesus, and I can kick that fear to the curb and say, no, Father, you’ve given me love and a sound mind, and that’s what I’m going to walk in.
So friends, if you feel fearful right now or if there is something you believe and fear, then you have to understand that’s not Jesus. He did not give you that spirit of fear. It’s so important to differentiate those thoughts berating us and recognize that they’re not from the Lord.
When I can speak that over my fear, my body comes back down.
Concern moves you to action, but worry stops that action. Anxiety stops that action.
Many times God will show me something that I need to be concerned about, and then it moves me to action, but I don’t lose my peace during that.
There have been times when I’ve been warned about something, but I feel the peace of God over it and it doesn’t make me anxious, weird, or scared.
But sometimes I feel flat-out freaky and like I’m losing control with so much anxiety. Then, I know, this isn’t from God. This is not God.
Panic and anxiety immobilize you, but concern moves you to action
Anxiety and worry immobilize you, but concern moves you to action.
Those are the two ways you can know the difference, for God not to give you a spirit of fear but power, love, and a sound mind.
Kelly: Yes. Praise Jesus. I get so excited about that! That’s such a perfect verse, especially for what you’ve gone through.
I love that you differentiated between them because fear is meant to be good. It’s meant to keep us alert. As you said, it’s meant to move us forward, but fear in that capacity of anxiety and worry escalates and snowballs into this huge thing that is not meant for good.
That’s just meant to keep us from moving forward. I’ve never heard anybody explain it like that, and I love it. It’s such a simple way to differentiate.
Panic and anxiety keep you from moving forward
Thank you so much for sharing. So, we are almost out of time, but I want to talk about your new book that was just released on April 11th.
Nervous Breakthrough. I’m very excited about it. I think it’s going to bless so many people.
Everyone listening today, I hope you go to Christy’s website. Check out this book, please. If you struggle with anything like this, I feel it will be extremely helpful.
“The goal isn’t to cultivate a life free of fear. Such a life doesn’t exist. It’s to learn how to fear less.”
-Christy Boulware, Nervous Breakthrough: Finding Freedom from Fear and Anxiety in a World that Feeds it
There was one quote that I wanted to say from the book, and then I’ll let you explain a little bit more, that I thought was just beautiful. The quote was, “The goal isn’t to cultivate a life free of fear. Such a life doesn’t exist. It’s to learn how to fear less.”
that in and of itself is just wonderful guidance and direction. It’s so true because we are going to experience fear. It’s inevitable.
But to know how to manage and work through it, fellowship, and surround ourselves with people who are on our side and want to be on our journey to help is really important.
So why don’t you tell us a little bit about the book?
Christy: Thank you for that beautiful quote. It’s always so neat to hear back about the things that have impacted other people, so that just blessed me tremendously. Thank you so much for that.
Nervous Breakthrough: Finding Freedom from Fear and Anxiety in a World that Feeds It
It’s not just one way or the other. I understand that we need both. We need practical and spiritual tips if we’re going to get through fear and anxiety.
It’s 13 chapters of walking you through my journey with it and how to overcome it. I hope that you will go pick up a copy. Here’s the other thing, people asked me who I wrote this book for.
Help for you and your loved one
I wrote it really for two people. I wrote it for women or men. We’ve had lots of men reading this book too, which is cool. But I wrote it for the one that isn’t sure if she’s having a breakdown, thinks she’s headed towards a breakdown, or is already in a breakdown.
So there are three women there, but then I also wrote it for the person that doesn’t get anxiety, doesn’t understand it, is not really sure, but has many people around them dealing with it.
So you can read this book to get a better understanding of someone you love who’s going through severe panic and anxiety disorder. I think by reading it, you’ll learn how to help that person out and how to love that person well.
You can get it on Amazon or at FearlessUnite.com, the nonprofit I run. I hope that you’ll go get a copy and give it away.
Once you read it, keep spreading it on so it’ll just keep having a ripple effect in our world.
Kelly: Absolutely. I love that you wrote it for people who have a loved one going through it. I usually describe it like this … when somebody has a broken arm, you can see what’s broken because you see the cast, right?
Brokenness takes on many forms
But when somebody has something broken in their mind, you can’t see it. Because you can’t see it, there’s that stigma around it. They can’t understand it. They don’t know what’s happening exactly.
Maybe even the person going through it doesn’t understand. But it’s very helpful for people who have somebody in their life that struggles with depression, anxiety, panic, or anything like that to really engage in. Resources like this do because it’s scary for them too.
They love that person. They don’t understand what’s happening.
I love that you wrote it with that person in mind as well. That’s so wonderful.
I will put links to your website and the book in the show notes. You also just launched a podcast as well.
Fearless Tips and Talks
Did you want to talk a little bit about the podcast before we go?
You can find it wherever you listen to podcasting. I had this dream of short content and long content. So on Tuesdays, I release a tip that’s like three to five minutes long, and then the following week on a Thursday, I’m going to release a talk, and that’s where I’m going to interview people that have overcome fear and anxiety and are better off on the other side of it.
So you get a little bit of both. You get quick tips and long-form interview talks, too.
Kelly: Oh, that’s great. I love it. Fearless tips and talks. I love it. Thank you so much, Christy. Honestly, thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for sharing your journey.
It’s not easy to be vulnerable. I really appreciate you sharing. For anyone listening, please, if you can, pick up Christy’s book and share it among people. It’s absolutely wonderful.
It will help so many people, and we hope it helps you as well. I’m so grateful for you to be here.
Thank you so much, Christy.
Christy: Kelly, thank you for the work you’re doing in the world. I appreciate you.
Kelly: Oh, I appreciate you too. Thank you.
Bible Verses for Encouragement:
2 Timothy 1:7, NKJV “For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
Matthew 11:28, “Come to Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Nervous Breakthrough by Christy Boulware is a riveting, faith-filled journey through mental health challenges. Christy shares her transformative experiences with severe panic and anxiety, candidly revealing her darkest moments. Amidst her turmoil, she found profound healing through her faith in Jesus. This book serves as a testament to the power of faith and offers an empowering message of hope and resilience to those grappling with similar struggles. A truly inspiring read for anyone seeking light in the face of darkness.
This book is for the person who struggles with:
Relentless anxiety
Unexpected panic and fear
Control issues
Missing out on life due to anxiety
Struggling to value a Godly view of success over a worldly view
Snowballing anxious thoughts
Fears around health or death
Isolation from family and friends because they don’t understand your struggle
Sleeplessness
What does God say about medication for mental health
Condemnation from Christians: “Your faith is not strong enough because you have fears”
How to recognize the warning signs of fear and anxiety
How to fully surrender to God when fear is all you feel
Kelly: Welcome to the I Witness Podcast. I’m your host, Kelly Jo Wilson, and this is the show for women who struggle to accept their worth but want to embrace their gifts and share their witness for Jesus. We have a great show today, and it’s actually part two of my interview with Alycia Johnson. Alycia is the CEO at Tirzah Ministries, and she’s also the co-founder of Tirzah Place, which is a home for teenage mothers.
I talk with Alycia about embracing God’s love and calling against all odds. In part one, Alycia initially told us a bit about her family and her backstory, and what guided her to become the CEO at Tirzah. She also shares about Jesus and how her faith was tested through the different churches that she was a part of growing up and the church that she was a part of later in her life.
This is part 2, where Alycia discusses how she has carried out her God-given calling and provides some resources and tips on how you can too.
Kelly: When did you first start the Tirzah Ministries while you were going to school? Is that how you got connected with people and started it?
Alycia: Well, that is a starting point while I was there. Actually, God completely orchestrates my life. People are like, you have to apply for jobs. I have applied for jobs before, but it really is like God just drops things in my lap.
All the professors are like, “You’re crazy. You’re graduating early and moving to Kentucky in the middle of the winter. You’re not even sure you’re accepted to this college and are just going to live there. So you’re taking all your stuff down with you for Christmas.”
I was like, yep, going through.
Kelly: I love it. I love it. That blind obedience is the best.
Obedience to God’s calling can take you to unexpected places
Alycia: It really is. Because you don’t know what’s on the other side of it. It can only be good because you have no clue at this point.
I moved there, got accepted, and found a place right away. The day before I moved in was Christmas, and I was looking for jobs. I was trying to find somewhere, and this place appeared.
I had these rules, but you can’t make rules with God, even so, I always try. They were: I would never work in a residential home and did not think I was strong enough to deal with teenagers. So while I was searching, God was like, apply for this job.
Making rules with God doesn’t work
It just kept popping up on all these sites. It was Christmas day, and I was applying for jobs. They were looking for a third shift worker that’s 23 years old, and I was 21, not 23. They wanted you to work all night in a residential home for teen moms.
I thought it aligned with my passion, but this violates all the rules, and I’m too young. There’s no way this wasn’t going to happen. I applied for the day job that you could be 21 years old.
But when I sent it at 2:00 AM, the man who runs it with his wife messaged me. He said, “Hey, I got your application. Would you like to try out for the third shift position?”
Kelly: Especially because he knows you’re up at 2AM. He’s thinking you’re already up. You might as well do that shift. That is funny.
Alycia: I thought, okay, well, this is it. There was no stopping at that point. So I worked there for two and a half years. It was the greatest experience.
I found out later they opened the year before I was born, right down the road from where my family’s from.
Kelly: Wow. That is so neat.
You find God’s love in other people
Alycia: It was really powerful when I realized that. I see God’s hand in their ministry. Even now, they’re really flourishing and growing. Their heart to minister to people is so genuine. It’s a husband and wife, and their story is amazing.
I’m not going to spend an hour on their story, but I could because there just an amazing couple.
Kelly: You just have to come back. That’s all that means.
Alycia: Yes, for sure. Because they’re incredible people, and they inspired me. I tell people not to discredit a man’s involvement in a women’s ministry in the right way.
Because he told me that I was strong enough to do that job. She could have told me, but in all honesty, she’s actually more the tough one because you gotta be that way with these girls, and he’s a gentle father figure. He said, “You’re young. You’re quiet. But you know what? I think we are going to feed you to the wolves and leave you, and you’ve got this. I will be there.”
When you do the work, you’ll find God’s love alongside you
He was there, even at 2:00 AM. If needed, I could call him. There was a tornado once in the middle of the night, and I was alone with all these girls. I picked up the phone and called him because I wanted someone to talk to that wasn’t a teenager. He was someone I could rely on.
He believed in me, and she also did, but there was a lot of power in him being the first person I interacted with. I left for Wisconsin but kept in touch with them. I still do.
That’s what inspired me to pursue the home for teen moms.
I moved back to where my family lives now in Milwaukee. The first job I had was with someone I connected with years ago. I wasn’t for sure accepted to the job, didn’t have a place to live, had a place picked out, and moved back to Wisconsin.
My first client in Wisconsin was 11 years old.
-Alycia Johnson
God knew the details because my first client in Wisconsin was 11 years old.
I couldn’t even imagine because I was doing home visitation, and there was nowhere for her to stay. So we called foster care, probably about 20 different calls about this pregnant 11-year-old girl, and no one ever took us seriously. Even teachers called. She left her parents’ home because her mom said, if you can’t take care of your younger siblings, I don’t want you here.
She said I’m not the parent of my younger siblings. Her mom said she was out. She stayed with her grandma, and she wasn’t going to school. I had someone try to traffic her, and she called me because I was the person she was closest to. Even though she only saw me every week once a week.
Alycia found herself sharing God’s love through the pro-life movement
I would pick her up and take her in my car, and we did our best to make sure everything was legal since she was 11 and I was driving her around. It was horrible for her. I thought, why are there no resources like this? Why is there no one doing anything about these teenage girls?
I saw it at home back in Kentucky, and I’m like, there’s a solution.
I might have been 23 years old, but why not try to start at home? We’re still fundraising because it was another girl and me, and running those homes is expensive.
It’s still in the fundraising stage, but it’s been so much prayer. I know there’s a need. So I know God will do it, and he’ll make it all happen at the right time.
God works through your unique experiences
But I see God’s hand in bringing me through my family’s story. Through the home in Kentucky and back into Wisconsin.
I saw a huge need for teenage parents, whom I happen to be the daughter of, and have spent these years working with this home. It’s just mind-boggling how God does that. Because he knows your story.
You can’t make that up. That’s when you know it’s God. I can’t take credit for any of that because I don’t get to take credit for who I was born to or where I’m from, so there’s never a point in my life where I can be like, “Well, I did that.” Because it’s so clear I did not do it.
Kelly: Oh yeah, He’s woven such a passion and interwoven you in many different situations to grow your experience. The best way to get you to experience how to do this beautiful ministry is to thrust you into situations where you have to do it.
I’m so grateful for people like you running these ministries in these homes and outreach and providing these resources for people like this 11-year-old girl. Because that’s an easy situation for people to turn their heads to because you people think somebody else will do it.
God knows your heart when He nudges you. You find God’s love within you.
But God knows your heart and knows Alycia will be the one to do it. I know it. I know she’s going to do it.
I’m so grateful to you for being that person for her. Even seeing her once a week, she trusted you enough to confide in and see you.
She obviously really wanted help because it takes a lot to even ask for help. But then to come consistently … It’s just so heartbreaking for somebody to be in a spot like that, especially a child. I love what you’re doing. I think it’s just amazing.
What was the place of your first job? I want to include it in the show notes. What is their ministry?
Kelly: So we’re almost at time, but on this journey you’ve been through, you said you’ve seen a lot of God’s love and grace. You thought about what God said in Genesis about what was meant for evil, but God meant for good.
Was there a verse that stood out to you while you were trying to find your way, experiencing these situations? Especially with your grandmother and your parents. Was there a verse you always remembered that stuck out to you?
Once you find God’s love in your heart, you’ll want to share it with the world
Alycia: The verse for me was Esther 4:14, which I see as a double-edged sword. Depending on the season, it can be bad and good for my life.
It says, “For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this.”
That verse to me is like, how could I be silent about what God’s done. Yes, there were terrible things that happened in childhood. While I talk of the positives of what I enjoyed, growing up in a really traumatic community, there were also many negatives. There were challenges with all of us being a really young family.
God strategically placed me in this job, working in the streets, canvassing, knocking on doors and telling people about the pro-life movement when that law was overturned
Alycia Johnson
Walking through grief with my grandmother and the different challenges we’ve gone through together.
But how could I be silent when a whole generation needs to see that?
God strategically placed me in this job, working in the streets, canvassing, knocking on doors, and telling people about the pro-life movement when that law was overturned.
Being in the streets with these people who have lobbied for years was so powerful for me. Knowing that God knew the timing for this home for teen moms because, before this season, people wouldn’t have been as aware of this issue.
Now, because of the ruling, people are abundantly aware there’s a need, and I truly believe it stops the need for abortion by empowering teenagers.
God uses you to share a powerful message of hope.
This is your first pregnancy, but you can plan the next one. Most of the older women I worked with had their first pregnancy as a teenager. So I might not be opening a hundred centers or homes, but simply sharing my family’s story to say, “You can do it. You can be the one that changes that pattern. You can be the one that starts something new and grow together.”
There’s no condemnation over my grandmother’s story.
We all love and value her, and she’s been such an amazing person in my life. My mom has a degree as a medical assistant now. My dad has a degree as a maintenance technician, and my sister has an early childhood degree. So we actually all have college degrees. We’re still a fairly young family.
You can change those patterns and not let one thing define you.
-Alycia Johnson
You can change those patterns and not let one thing define you.
Don’t let having a child stop you from becoming who you’re supposed to be. It’s an addition, a blessing. It’s not something holding you back from forever.
Kelly: That’s so powerful, Alycia. Thank you so much for what you do and just saying that. I think women really need to hear that, especially young women who have made mistakes in the past, whether it be abortions or just other mistakes.
They need to hear that, especially from a Christian who is just sharing God’s love and grace like you are through this home and these ministries. Your whole family, really. I think that that’s fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.
So if a young person finds herself pregnant and is listening to this today. Or even a woman who maybe has been like your grandma and had gone through an abortion or is really struggling, do you have a takeaway that you would want to share to encourage her?
You are not condemned for your choices but accepted through God’s love and grace
Alycia: I wish that someone had told my parents back in the day about pregnancy centers. What people don’t know is there are actually over a thousand in the nation, and they outnumber Planned Parenthood significantly.
I have worked with them for years, and they’re the most amazing places. I would say go to one, even if you’ve had an abortion. They actually have programs for that. They have healing retreats.
If you’re pregnant, you don’t need to have an unplanned pregnancy.
You can be pregnant, bring your husband, and get a free ultrasound. I sound a bit like a marketing advertisement, but I wish people understood the love in those buildings.
I have never been to a pregnancy center where they said we are here to make money or for a cause.
I’ve met hundreds of women working with pregnancy centers, and everyone says, “I just want to love and support another woman and her story.” I’ve watched them help women move furniture to get into new homes or sit in labor and delivery rooms.
You’ll find people who want to help you because of God’s love within them
They are there for you because they love Jesus. They don’t show condemnation, and the centers are free. You’re not charged anything. They get nothing out of it. It’s simply because they’re there to love you. So call one. There is one in your community.
It’s not very well advertised because they’re not great at marketing, but they’re too busy loving people.
Kelly: I’ll put some links in the show notes for resources. That’s wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that, Alycia. That is wonderful. And I love hearing about your experience with that because there probably is a lot of fear because there’s fear of the unknown.
If you don’t know these places exist, you don’t even know to reach out and ask. But especially for kids, younger teenagers going through this, they don’t know. They don’t know what they don’t know sometimes, actually all of us really.
Don’t be afraid to reach out for help. You’ll notice God’s love and direction in unlikely places.
I’ll put links to your beautiful Bible verse too.
So is there any final encouragement you would like to give or any final acknowledgments you want to share before we end today?
Alycia: I talked a lot about my journey from the church through the hard things I’ve been through. I prefer not to name the church I’m at right now because I enjoy the anonymity a little bit. But I want to acknowledge that I now have an amazing church that has supported me.
It’s growing, and I’m happy to keep getting put on stages there.
I have to say it’s a testimony of finding God’s love in a humble pastor who’s a bit awkward, actually, and I’m sorry to him in advance for that.
But those qualities in him made him the perfect person for me to have as a pastor after everything I’d been through. So that shaped a new journey for me to feel comfortable and safe in a church again. So there is a right church for you and a right community of God for you.
You have to find what is best for your story and journey now. Don’t let one bad experience keep you from the good ones.
-Alycia Johnson
You have to find what is best for your story and journey now. I’m super grateful for the many pastors and women in ministry who empowered me. So don’t let one bad experience keep you from the good ones.
Kelly: Oh, that’s great. That is so encouraging. I feel like that happens, especially when you put your trust in a church and find out you have a different perspective later.
Sometimes it can really turn you from the church and from God altogether.
So I love your testimony of that. I appreciate you being here, Alycia. I did want to mention that Alycia has a book called Becoming: A 20-Day Devotional.
Why don’t you tell us about the book before we go today?
My story has been more about learning not to be a perfectionist, finding God’s love, and putting my identity solely in him
-Alycia Johnson
Alycia: The book is about those things to guide young adult women because, while people have heard my family’s story, my story has been more about learning not to be a perfectionist, finding God’s love, and putting my identity solely in him.
It’s a 20-day devotional for young adult women to help them find God’s love and what he has called them uniquely to do. I share stories from my journey.
Kelly: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much, Alycia, for being here today.
I appreciate your testimony, and I just appreciate your wonderful, beautiful story and the mission and the ministry that you are doing. Thank you so very much. I am so grateful to you and your whole family for everything you’ve done.
Alycia: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be on here and super fun.
Kelly: I hope you enjoyed today’s show. Our show is brought to you today by the Wilson Shop on Etsy. Beautiful designs and encouraging words can change the world. If you’re looking for positive messaging on your favorite apparel, journals, and home decor, visit the wilson shop.com.
If this episode encouraged you, please consider sending it to one friend you think would benefit from what we’ve discussed. I’m so grateful for this time with you, and thank you for listening.
Genesis 50:20, NKJV, “But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is to this day, to save many people alive.”
2 Corinthians 5:17, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things have become new.”
Esther 4:14, “For if you remained completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father’s house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?”
Join author Alycia Johnson on a 20-day journey to discover who you are becoming! Using stories from growing up in the inner city and the country, working in ministry, and helping moms/babies across the states, Alycia shows you who she is becoming. This biography is separated into daily devotionals so you can look to your past, see your present, and dream of who God wants you to become in the future!
Kelly: Welcome to the I Witness Podcast. I’m your host. Kelly Jo Wilson and this is the show for women who struggle to accept their worth but want to embrace their gifts and share their witness for Jesus. We have a great show today about embracing God’s love against all odds. Our guest today is Alycia Johnson.
Alycia is currently the CEO at Tirzah Ministries and co-founder of Tirzah Place, a home for teenage mothers. As the daughter of teenage parents, she spends her time advocating for strengthening families and giving young parents the tools to break generational cycles. Her passion is for women to know their value and carry out their God-given calling.
Welcome to the I Witness podcast today, Alycia. I’m so happy you’re here.
Alycia: Thank you for having me, Kelly. I’m excited to be here.
Kelly: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, Alycia and I chatted a bit beforehand, and I just wanted to say that it is such a funny way that we came to meet one another. God has a way of putting people in your path and bringing people together that’s amazing. I’m happy that you are here and happy to be talking with you today. I think you have a wonderful story. So why don’t we just get into a little bit of your background, upbringing, parents, and family? You can tell us about your journey to finding Jesus.
Alycia: To make it exciting, I will start with my parents’ story because I like to describe it as a Hallmark movie.
Kelly: Oh, that’s great. I love Hallmark.
Alycia: I feel like someday they could be a Hallmark movie. They were teenagers in the Appalachian Mountains and met at a very young age.
They were in high school from two different counties, and I do mean they were from the mountains. My dad had a motorcycle. He played on the football team. He worked at Walmart, helped with his family, and had his guitar. My mom was one of the cheerleaders, so I always think that’s super cute.
They don’t always like to say that’s super cute or even talk about how they got married, but I’ve always thought it was adorable. They actually eloped in a trailer. The man who married them was the pastor and barber, and he might have been the mayor and the school bus driver, too.
Odds were against Alycia’s parents
This wasn’t that long ago, either. My dad’s friends were the witnesses. During that time, and even today, one of the only ways to leave the mountains is to join the military. My dad was a little bit older than my mom, and he was graduating.
So he joined the military and was actually in South Korea for quite a while when I was young, fighting in the war.
He was over there, and I remember my mom sharing this story, I think she was living with his mom at the time, and she’s 16 with me. She’s barely got her license and realizes her husband has left with the credit card.
She’s like, what do I do? He has the card, and he’s like really going away. So they had to figure that out.
So I have had quite an adventurous childhood. My parents are still together today. I am always blown away. I have heard a lot of statistics growing up and working in the pro-life movement, which I’ve done for several years, about the success rates for teenage parents for marriage.
It’s so funny because when I go to church now, the pastor always says that my parents are couple goals. They grew up together, have known each other through so many seasons, and walked alongside many journeys. They wanted something new for my sister, who’s seven years younger than me, and me.
How Alycia’s parents listened to God’s call for the family
So they really sought to figure out what that new thing was, which was leaving the mountains. We go back frequently, but they asked themselves, what’s best for us?
The first three years were a military journey. I was born on a military base in Missouri. My dad was in South Korea.
I lived in Louisiana, and then my parents ended up in Bible college in Washington State. My parents took us wherever to figure that out, and being a child wasn’t easy. We moved frequently, but I’ve never doubted that my parents loved me.
They were young and were figuring out life. So it’s been a cool journey that ties into my faith journey of my parents. From what I understand of the story, I got saved when I was a baby.
Building a relationship with God
It’s really cool that we got to start a relationship with God together. I try to describe that to people, saying I grew up with my parents taking notes all night for Bible college when I was three. So at the age of ten, I was sitting with pastors until midnight.
I know it’s not the norm for most girls to spend their nights with head pastors and missionaries from around the world just sitting there and talking about scripture.
There were also challenges because of the church. We attended that church from when I was three years old until I was nineteen. That church introduced us to Jesus. But we were navigating the dynamics of figuring out life. My parents were teenagers, and this church really became like a parental figure in their life.
That sounds great, and there were great aspects to it, but there was also a lot of control.
So once they became pastors, there were many things like unnecessary rules controlling what we did. We lived in properties owned by pastors, and they weren’t the best properties to live in.
How listening to God’s call took Alycia to an unexpected destination
We moved from Washington State to St. Louis, Missouri, when I was six. My family went from the Appalachian Mountains into the hood. What surprises many people about me is I grew up in a predominantly African American community. But it wasn’t odd for me at all.
That’s what I knew. That was my norm. We lived there from the time I was six until I was fifteen. My sister was born there. I loved it.
I have so many fond memories, and that really surprises people. But there’s such a sense of community. The neighbors have to protect each other. You really have to watch out.
You know who your neighbors are because you need to know what’s going on. I had so many friends that I loved, and that looked out for me in St. Louis. Let me tell you, that city is amazing because it has so many free things to do.
They just had so many fun things for a family who didn’t have a lot. We could go and explore all these programs, and my parents were really able to learn more about who they are. But unfortunately, in the Appalachian Mountains, there is still a lot of racism today.
Racism is real, but so is God’s grace
That was something I had to navigate growing up. Visiting the mountains every year and having family members ask me what’s it like being around black people. I would say, “Why are you asking me this?”
That wasn’t my norm. My parents were always so loving to everyone. To be honest, nobody ever looked at me as a child and said, you’re white. You’re not black.
I never experienced that when I was in St. Louis. That’s the beauty of the church we attended.
There were so many different races, and you were accepted for your own story, not because of your skin color.
Kelly: That’s fantastic.
Alycia: I feel like my family grew a lot there. It was very challenging. When I was fourteen, I asked Jesus into my heart, but it was more from a place of fear than from wanting a relationship. To be honest. It felt more like, “Well, hell sounds worse, so I don’t want to go there. But I don’t know that heaven sounds that great based on what I’ve been taught.”
Trying to listen to God’s call through fear and unrealistic expectations
Learning through my journey then was like, “I’m going to own this.” But it was all based out of fear and perfection. At that church, my parents were very loved, but I was also seen as one of the perfect children, for lack of a better way to put that, of doing what they were told and following the rules.
I was one of the youngest to be allowed to teach Sunday school alone. That sounds nice, but that is a lot of pressure on a fifteen-year-old girl, for example. If I could go back, I would tell myself, “Don’t take on the responsibility that’s not yours to take on.”
There were grownups in the congregation with their own stories who would look at me and say, “I can’t believe you’re sitting in the back row reading a book right now. Somebody could have got saved while you were reading this book.”
Kelly: That’s tough.
Alycia: The journey of a pastor’s child as well at times. That was hard to hear those things. I’d be like, “Well, am I doing the right thing?” I was constantly questioning. It wasn’t a sense of am I capable of doing something. I’ve always been told I could do many things. But it’s more about, can I not do something? Is there a time when I get to sit and let other people lead? I can go read the book or go to the park. I feel like my family walked through that as well.
The church craved control, but God is the One who provides
Kelly: It’s difficult because it sounds like your family had a lot of faith. They were dependent and active in the church and wanted to do wonderful things.
As you said, they always shared love. They were always loving people. They raised you to see people for who they are.
The initial goals of that church sound like they wanted that too.
But sometimes you get too much control because God takes us through trials and different seasons of our lives to experience how He steps in and is strong for us. Sometimes you don’t always have, especially at fifteen, you don’t always have all that to give out.
Your cup is constantly pouring out, but you have to give yourself some time for Jesus and God to refill your heart with that love. They are so capable through the Holy Spirit, but it’s hard for us in our flesh because you’re trying so hard to help people. Especially when you have all that pressure on you, that’s difficult.
But I love that your parents were very loving and raised you both that way. What a sweet story. That is a very Hallmark-style story.
I love it. God bless them so much.
So you were in that church until you were nineteen. Do you feel like that helped you get closer to God? Do you feel like it helped you search for Him more, or do you think it pulled you away from him?
Listening to God’s call based on a foundation in His word
Alycia: Well, I think that’s what surprises people within that whole journey is there’s this movement now that’s deconstructing your faith. I hear a lot about that, and I disagree with it.
There was a book that came out recently where she talked about disentangling your faith instead of deconstructing. Just because you don’t agree with something doesn’t mean you need to throw out the whole thing.
Sometimes you need to go back and say, “What are the core moments that I can agree with?”
I learned so much from the Bible, which has shaped who I am in ministry. People joke with me because I try to avoid ministry and don’t always want to see that as my calling, but it’s been ingrained in me.
I believe God had a purpose in that to say, “Hey, I’m going to give you a solid biblical foundation. You’re going to hear the word and wrong things about it, but it will be ingrained in you. Then you can reshape that later.”
So my twenties were this unique journey of believing in those morals. I fell into the pro-life movement at nineteen as well, and it was not something I planned on doing or wanted to do.
How Alycia listened to God’s call through the pro-life movement
I was not too fond of the pro-life movement, which would surprise people because I had teenage parents. Every time I saw signs that said, “Adopt your baby,” I was like, well, I love my parents. I don’t want to be adopted by you. I’m happy my parents raised me.
I wanted to speak to those people to tell them not to adopt their babies. They just need your help, and not put pressure on them and make them into leaders. They just need you to love them and show God’s love.
God knew that, so he pushed me into the pro-life movement, which led me on a journey with God. I had to listen to His call.
I knew I wanted to create a different pregnancy center than I had seen, one that was more of a business model, not just helping people. One that protected the staff the way I wish my parents had been protected when I was younger and that also served the people simultaneously.
A different side of Jesus
It was a crazy goal, especially for a 20-year-old, but I thought, let’s see where this goes. I went to a Lutheran College, which taught me not to discredit one church because I disagreed with the doctrine. I’m not Lutheran, but I went to this Lutheran college. They showed so much grace, which I needed to see at that time, extravagant grace, for everyone and themselves.
That showed me a different side of Jesus that I had never seen.
Kelly: Awe, that’s beautiful. I’m so glad you had that because I can already hear that you have this passion and desire that God fostered.
What a wonderful thing. I love that you said not to discredit a church, essentially not judge the book by its cover immediately. Because anybody, say from Catholic or something else, with Lutheran might be like, “Oh no, I can’t go in there.”
But again, probably rooted in your parents, there’s that teaching about accepting and being open to following your heart and listening to your calling from God.
You went in there and experienced just wonderful grace. I feel like grace is such a beautiful thing to see in action. So I’m so happy you had that church to go to, especially if you’ve never experienced that before.
I was going to ask you about when you went to St. Louis, how sometimes in tough communities, or at least rough from the outside, they’re very close-knit people. Like you said, to protect themselves and one another. Which is an interesting thing that you don’t hear much about.
I feel like it’s maybe for protection, so I’m glad that you had that too.
What happened at the church once you went there? How did that transform your journey moving forward with your goals?
How God’s call was persistent, and Alycia listened even without attending church
Alycia: So that was, it was actually the college. I should clarify.
I still hadn’t stepped foot in a church again. So this was the value of Christian education, knowing their core values would align with mine.
While I was there, they just kept seeking me out. I was not going to seek anyone out, especially in leadership, after everything I had been through.
But they kept following me and put me in a pregnancy center. They said, “You are going to love this. You’re going to intern here and not Lutheran, so you can’t counsel.”
I probably shouldn’t disclose this, but she’s retired now, so this is why I can woman in charge who said, “You can’t counsel people because you’re not Lutheran. But what I’m gonna do is give you the keys of the building, and if there’s no one else to counsel people, well, then you have to counsel people.”
So I’m twenty years old in a pretty sketchy neighborhood next to a bus stop in this house where we did pregnancy counseling for people, including teenage parents.
I would go in there by myself. She was the executive director and taught me to run the whole thing top-down.
I fell in love. I thought it was super fun. This is so many of my giftings from childhood, my family’s story. I really wanted to create that new model for what I know pregnancy centers can be.
Listening to God’s call turns desire into an opportunity
So, I applied to grad school. All of my professors and advisors thought I was a bit nuts because I only applied to one grad school. I realized I had enough credits to graduate a semester early, and I thought, I’m pro-life, and I want to do social work.
By the way, for anyone who doesn’t know, social work is not a Christian field.
It’s very limited in the number of Christians involved and is known for being fairly liberal and pro-choice. So I thought I would have to attend a Christian school because I’d be laughed out of any other school.
Only four were in the country then, so I had to pick between Texas, Kentucky, New Jersey, and California.
The one in Kentucky happened to be an hour away from where my parents were from and where my grandparents lived. I always wanted to experience where my parents grew up because my parents may have had challenges, but that wasn’t my story. I have fond memories of the mountains and wanted to live there.
I had started working with pregnancy centers.
An abortion, a suicide attempt, and listening to God’s call for grace
My grandmother had an abortion before it was legal, so a long time ago, she had only disclosed it to one person. She tried to commit suicide when I started working at the pregnancy center.
My grandmother is someone that I’m very close to. She always shows grace no matter where we live. She’s always there. She’s actually in town right now, and I just picked her up two days ago, so we’re very close.
It’s been this constant journey with my family. I ended up going back there and attended grad school, where I experienced another side of God. My professor at that grad school invited me to Bible study at her house.
This community was predominantly white, and I had grown up in St. Louis in a predominantly black community that I was very close to and fond of. The professor that invited me to her house happened to be black, one of the only ones on staff. So that was a special connection I wouldn’t have had with other people. She had us over every week and told us I want you to read the Bible and tell me what you think of the Bible.
I thought, well, this is new. Nobody’s ever asked me what I thought scripture said before.
So that opened a whole new door. It worked with me going to my grandma’s on the weekends, helping her, and getting to watch her. She helped found the Frankfort Memorial for the Unborn, the state capital in Kentucky, with a memorial devoted to aborted and miscarried babies.
Redeeming a life of guilt and shame
She was one of the founding members. So yeah, it’s. It is beautiful to see her life, see God redeem it, and be a part of her walking this journey of faith, redeeming traumatic things for her.
That showed me how God shows grace even in the worst circumstances and how there’s no guilt or condemnation because I watched my grandma walk through a lot of that.
Feeling guilt for her decisions as a teenager when she had that abortion. My mom’s the only other child she has.
God doesn’t condemn you for that. You’re restored, and you’re made whole. He can use testimony to help start a memorial that helps many lives.
That verse in Genesis, I believe, says what you intended for evil, I intended for the good of many.
Kelly: That’s about Joseph. Joseph says that to his brothers, I love that you just said that verse. I feel like that is so true. That is such a powerful statement.
That verse in Genesis, I believe, says you what you intended for evil I intended for the good of many.
It always gets me. That’s why I remembered it. I don’t remember much from Genesis other than God creating, but the story of Joseph, for sure.
Wow. What a powerful thing. Your whole family has made an amazing impact, probably when you didn’t even feel like it was happening.
Everyone makes mistakes, but God calls us anyway
We all make mistakes. We all make choices that we regret. But a lot of people with abortion don’t talk about the aftermath. The aftermath for the mother, too, is horrendous guilt. Horrendous guilt. I mean to the point that she wanted to take her own life because of it.
So I love that she let herself believe that Jesus accepts her even through that so she could listen to God’s call to do amazing things. As the word says, you are a new creation. So, she became the founder of this beautiful memorial. What a wonderful testimony.
I’m so happy that she had you there with her, too. You’re going to school, learning, and then learning about her journey. You guys are just changing lives over there. It’s beautiful.
I hope you enjoyed today’s show. You’ll find links to what we discussed in the blog post version of this episode IWitnessPodcast.com, and our show is brought to you today by The Wilson Shop on Etsy.
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Bible Verses for Encouragement
Genesis 50:20, NKJV, “But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is to this day, to save many people alive.”
2 Corinthians 5:17, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold all things have become new.”
Join author Alycia Johnson on a 20-day journey to discover who you are becoming! Using stories from growing up in the inner city and the country, working in ministry, and helping moms/babies across the states, Alycia shows you who she is becoming. This biography is separated into daily devotionals so you can look to your past, see your present, and dream of who God wants you to become in the future!
This episode is part 2 of the interview with Lisa Appelo. Lisa unexpectedly lost her husband, and she takes us through how God spoke to her on her grief journey with her seven children. She shares resources and encouragement that helped her along the way and could help other women struggling with the pain of shattering loss.
Lisa Appelo inspires women to deepen faith in life’s storms and is an ECPA bestselling author. A former litigating attorney, Lisa is passionate about rich Bible teaching. Lisa founded a team of writers at HopeinGrief.com and currently serves on the executive team for Compel with Proverbs 31 Ministries. Her work has been featured at Life Today, Insight for Living, and many more. As a single mom of seven, Lisa’s days are filled with parenting ministry and long walks to justify lots of dark chocolate.
Lisa: It is for sure too hard for us. We were not made for death, divorce, disease, or devastation like this. We weren’t made for it. So when these things happen, it does overwhelm us. That old saying that God won’t give you more than you can handle. That’s just not true.
We can absolutely find ourselves in circumstances that are too hard for us.
I remember writing at the top of my journal every day for well over a year,
THIS IS TOO HARD. I CANNOT DO THIS.
All caps, bold, underlined. That was the reality of my heart. I’m sure people looked at me and thought, you’re so strong.
But I knew what was going on inside. I knew the war raging in my thoughts and my emotions and could feel the enemy. I felt like the enemy was trying to get his toe into our family and just pull it apart.
Listen, this was not Lisa who had everything put together and was doing all the right things. This was Lisa who was desperate for the Lord.
Listen to God speaking and nudging you
Sometimes I think we can feel that nudge to meet with the Lord, open the word, meet with him in prayer, maybe read a devotion or read the Bible, and we think it’s guilt. You think God is guilting us like, “You haven’t met with me. You’re so bad.”
But it’s not. It’s wooing us like somebody who loves us, holding out their hands and saying, “I have everything you need. Come to me.”
It makes me weep. Because I remember … I remember those days when I just was desperate. And he says, “Come to me.”
So I think for the woman listening to this right now and saying, “I’ve stayed away from God, and I haven’t opened the word. I am mad,” to just listen to that nudge. Open it and give God a chance to meet you where you are.
It won’t look all tidy, and everything won’t be wrapped up with the bow that first day. God will meet you where you are. He will give you hope and encourage you. He will remind you how much he loves you and remind you of his promises and faithfulness, and that’s how we do life.
We’re not promised that life will be easy. But we’re promised that God will be faithful.
You are not alone, life is messy for all of us
Kelly: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that, Lisa. I think that is so encouraging that it won’t be easy. We know that we’re not promised that. It’s going to be hard, and it’s going to be messy.
A lot of women take comfort in knowing that other women are going through it too, and it’s messy and hard for them too. But there is a way to come through it.
Like you said, listening to that nudge, I’ve had many women reach out to me who don’t think they hear God’s voice. They’re not sure if it’s him.
They question it a lot, but I think a lot of times it is not necessarily questioning him, but more questioning themselves. I love that you said, just listen to that nudge because it is there. It’s like a soft, still voice. Do you feel like it was like that with you? Like he just kept pulling you?
How does God speak to us?
Lisa: God speaks to us in his word, so we can be sure that we can open up the word and see him speaking to us. I mean, not audibly, like how Moses heard or Paul heard, but he speaks to us through scripture.
Somehow a hundred women could read the same passage. God applies it to each of us personally not differently, not in opposition to each other. Still, God will apply it personally to us because scripture’s alive. I would say open up scripture. You don’t even need a devotional. Devotionals are awesome, but start the book of John. Just see who Jesus is and what he has to say to you.
Kelly: What a wonderful book to start in. I read John a lot too. I also really like Matthew. For some reason, I’m so drawn to Matthew when reading about Jesus and I usually read the New King James version. But I like going through different versions to see how he’s speaking to you.
But yes, what a wonderful encouragement. So this happened years ago, but it never fully goes away. Right? You always have this part, and time just kind of moves you past it. You just learn to live with it, I feel like right?
Is that how it is with you? Is that how it feels? The wound is not quite as open, but it’s still there, and you learn to manage it.
But was there anybody that inspired you during that time or your journey that you could look up to or helped guide you? Did anybody walk alongside you?
Does the grief ever get better?
Lisa: Well, a couple things come to mind. One is, yes, grief does lessen and soften if we do the hard work of grief. Time is not a natural healer it’s neutral. It’s what we do with that time. So there are definitely ways that we process grief and loss over and over and over.
It’s never just a one-and-done thing, but it does lessen and soften. Most days I would say I’m very much used to this pace of life and love life.
But we miss Dan at every milestone and at every dinner that we have together. He will always be missed.
I didn’t know any other young widow I could walk with, but I had friends that loved on me. That’s such a lesson to us because sometimes we think, well, I don’t understand what she’s walking through. I’ve never lost a child, or I’ve never been through a divorce, or I’ve never had cancer. So we don’t think that we are capable of really ministering to that person.
God speaks through the love of people, too
But really, it’s just loving that person in it. It’s just loving them and showing up. That’s the big thing. We don’t have to have magic words.
We can’t fix the problem, so we can just let ourselves off the hook of having to fix the problem. But just showing up, being present, reminding, sending a text, having coffee, and listening to their heart. There are so many ways we can love somebody in it, which was huge for me.
There’s somebody who is no longer living but has always been a heroine for me is Elizabeth Elliot. Her writing is just so good. She recently came out with a book after her death, but they put it together, called Suffering is Never for Nothing. She knew suffering more than just her two husbands who passed away. She’s two times a widow, but she had other losses in her life. So, her writing and her steady trust has been a huge encouragement.
We have encouragement in God speaking through other people
Kelly: Wow. That is so amazing that you just said Elizabeth Elliot right now. Because I can’t even tell you. I was just looking up her story. So It’s just funny, to me, those little coincidences.
I love so much that you had friends that loved on you, because that is so important. It’s so encouraging to just sit with somebody, and most times it probably doesn’t even matter what they say. Right? Just to be there to listen, to hug you.
It’s so true. You’re so right. “I don’t have cancer. I don’t know how I’m going to help people. I didn’t, I never lost a child.” Many people say that and I think it it’s very well intended. I think that it’s, “I don’t walk that path. I don’t know it, how can I tell them anything?”
But really, nobody even wants you to tell them anything. They just want your love, your hug, and you to listen to them. So, I am so happy that you had friends like that because, man, it really does make a difference. That’s why fellowship within one another is so important too.
God spoke through testimony
Especially as women, I feel like we get each other. There’s so much pressure in the world, these unrealistic expectations set for us and we don’t even know how that happens. We’re not in competition with each other.
We are here to encourage each other and I love so much that you said that and had that support. Because what a difficult walk.
Elizabeth Elliot, just to share with the listeners, her husband was killed overseas. They were missionaries and they went over to help to minister to people about Jesus. I think they were called the Auca people.
Lisa: I think they’re called a Waudoni is their name now that they use.
Kelly: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Her husband and four other missionaries were speared by men who did not want them around. They did not accept the word. I was actually just reading something that her husband could have drawn a pistol to defend himself. But he made a promise to them that he wouldn’t. He would not harm any of them, especially if they hadn’t accepted Jesus.
Elizabeth Elliot though, she also lost her second husband after he had passed. But I think it’s so amazing, and it shows such grace that she returned, I wanna say, a year later to minister to those same people who murdered her husband. Only God can give that kind of fierce forgiveness.
Lisa: She would go and live with the very people who had killed her husband and get to know them, understand what they were thinking, and why they killed her husband. Many would come to Christ through her, her witness, and her little girl.
We witness through our character how God transforms our heart
Kelly: Absolutely. And it just speaks volumes to how God can work through us. How we can be the light. Just like he’s working through you. He really is. Even just being here today and sharing a discussion and your story because it isn’t easy to be vulnerable.
Especially about something just so tragic, Lisa. I’m just so grateful to you for being here. I wanted to ask you, was there any verse that really carried you or even carries you now through grief that really speaks to you? I know you said the verse earlier, come to me all weary and heavy laden, and I’ll give you rest.
That’s a fantastic verse. Did that verse help you, or was there another verse that helped you through that?
God’s word is a living encouragement
Lisa: Yeah, there were a lot of verses that meant a lot to me. But I think one early in my grief that I probably never would’ve come across unless I had been reading through the Bible every day chapter by chapter. I found a verse in Deuteronomy 33:27, and it says, “The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.”
It was such a picture of God that while my world was shaking and imploding, God was steady and eternal. That he held us, and those eternal arms, those everlasting arms were carrying us and holding us when I felt like everything else had fallen apart.
I just clung to that.
I started signing my emails with it and writing it in thank-you notes. I just clung to that verse and that picture of God being our eternal refuge.
When we feel overwhelmed, we have God’s word to comfort us
Kelly: Oh, that is just beautiful. I will also put that in the show notes for the listeners to help them. Because I feel like sometimes when you’re feeling overwhelmed, you’re grasping at straws, and it’s hard to remember even what you did the day before. Especially whenever you have such a hurting heart.
But that is just beautiful. Thank you so much for that.
So I know you are a writer and an executive team member for the Compel team for Proverb 31 Ministries, but you also published a book. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your book and what your book is about?
Because you really discuss a lot of this in the book, right?
Lisa’s book helps those suffering with shattering loss in many ways
The book is for that woman who finds herself navigating a life she didn’t expect, a life that she doesn’t want.
It can happen in a lot of ways. It can happen through a diagnosis, marriage, or even a business that implodes, and life looks different now. Even a relationship with somebody who’s living but has been cut off causes a lot of pain. Maybe the death of somebody you love.
There are many ways we can find ourselves in that place of shattering loss.
I remember wanting to know one person who was just a few steps ahead of me who could both assure me I would make it through and was flesh and bones. I knew God would be faithful. He’d said he would be faithful in the word, but I wanted to see it on flesh and bones lived out.
Life can be good again, Lisa helps you to walk the journey
Also somebody who could just take my hand and say, “this is the way. Let’s do this.”
So this book does not gloss over the heart. It’s called Life Can Be Good Again, because I remember wanting and worrying that I would never smile again, that I would just make the best of life that it was now, but I would never experience real joy. That kind of organic joy that bubbles up again.
The promise is that life can be good again, but we have to walk through the hard questions and hard emotions. So how do we do that?
Practices that we can do to find our footing and begin taking little steps will help us move forward in this life we didn’t expect.
Kelly: Oh, that’s so wonderful. See, I just, oh my goodness. I just love it so much! Your book is very encouraging. I definitely encourage our listeners to get it, for sure. You said you wanted somebody to help take your hand and see how. So now you are living this wonderful purpose of helping women by taking their hand, being somebody in the flesh.
I love that you’re giving back in that way. It just warms my heart so much. Thank you for doing what you do.
God will never give you second best
Suppose you had one takeaway from your experiences of knowing Jesus and your journey through grief with God through ups and downs. What would your takeaway be to a woman dealing with a similar struggle and pain?
Lisa: Something was impressed on me, probably not early in grief, but probably my second year of grief because I was still really struggling, still in a place of despair.
I mean that second year the fog of grief had lifted, and this hard reality had just settled in. I remember one day in my minivan saying, I don’t even know if I said it out loud, but saying something like, “I don’t like my life. This is not what I ordered.”
On the heels of that came this thought that while this was not what I had expected, it did not surprise God. He allowed it. It was not a Plan B, that it was a chapter two. Because God had allowed it, it had as much abundance, goodness, and joy as the chapter before.
I didn’t immediately feel better or immediately say, “oh, well, I’m all better now. Let me just move on.”
“I still had a lot of missing loneliness and grief to work through.”
But it shifted my perspective and helped me lean on the truth that God does not give us plan B. For so long I thought I was living out the leftovers of the life I wanted, that this was second best and first best was my first plan that was gone.
But God does not give us second best. He does not give us the leftovers. What he allows is chapter two. It’s never a plan B, which can shift our paradigm if we lean on that and say, “well then, by definition, God, if you’ve allowed it, there is goodness here. If you’ve allowed, there is joy and abundant life here, and I’m going to fight for it.”
Lean into God and hear Him speak to your heart
Kelly: That’s just so wonderful. Lisa, thank you so much. I love that you say lean into God because it’s hard. It’s hard, but we start to lean on him. I mean, it’s just a wonderful picture of really leaning on his strength.
He tells us, in our weakness, he is strong. So when we feel most weak, lean into him. I just love how real and raw you are about it. How you do not sugarcoat anything, and you say in my second year of grief. I bet even that statement is helping someone listening because like you said, it’s not a timestamp.
You can’t timestamp it. But yes, what a fantastic takeaway. What a wonderful way to embrace what happened and find that journey back to having hope and joy again. Thank you so much, Lisa.
Do you have any closing encouragements?
Lisa: No, but for the one who’s listening to this, just don’t believe the lie of your circumstances. I think our emotions and our circumstances will lie to us. While our emotions can tell us that we’re dealing with difficulty, they cannot predict our future. Only God can do that, and trust him with that.
Kelly: Yes, absolutely. Just wonderful. Thank you so, so much. I will put Lisa’s book in the show notes, a link to your website where we can find you, and absolutely will share the Bible verses you graciously shared with us today too, Lisa.
Lisa: Thank you for having me, great conversation. I appreciate you making space for this. This is a hard conversation for many, but I really appreciate it.
Kelly: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us today, and I feel so honored to have you here. Thank you.
Lisa: Thank you
Bible Verses for Encouragement
Matthew 11:28, NKJV, “Come to Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Deuteronomy 33:27, NKJV, “The eternal God is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you, And will say, ‘Destroy!”
Resources for You
Lisa’s book Life Can Be Good Again helps women to put their lives back together after it falls apart.
Lisa Appelo shares how she saw who God is through the shattering loss of her husband. Lisa describes how she was desperate for God in those hard moments, and how her family grieved together but in their own separate ways.
Welcome to the I Witness Podcast. I’m your host, Kelly Jo Wilson, and this is the show for women who struggle to accept their worth but want to embrace their gifts and share their witness for Jesus. We have a great show today about life after shattering loss.
Kelly: Our guest is my friend and fellow author, Lisa Appelo. Lisa inspires women to deepen faith in life’s storms and is an ECPA bestselling author. A former litigating attorney, Lisa is passionate about rich Bible teaching. Lisa founded a team of writers at HopeinGrief.com and currently serves on the executive team for Compel with Proverbs 31 Ministries. Her work has been featured at Life Today, Insight for Living, and many more. As a single mom of seven, Lisa’s days are filled with parenting ministry and long walks to justify lots of dark chocolate. Welcome to the I Witness podcast, Lisa. I’m so happy to have you here.
Lisa: Thank you so much, Kelly Jo. I’m happy to be with you.
Kelly: Yes, yes. Thank you. So, today I just wanted to talk about the wonderful but challenging journey you’ve traveled. Your faith and walk with God over these past few years. So I just wanted to share or wanted our listeners to hear a little bit more about your background and family and then go from there about your faith journey.
You’re really passionate about helping women through shattering loss and grief. I think it’s just so inspiring, and you have such a wonderful story to tell. So why don’t you start by telling us a little bit about your family, background, and even how you came to know Jesus. Like how old you were and just a little bit of what that looks like.
Lisa met God early in her life
Lisa: Sure, when you were asking that question, I was thinking about my story, and I thought, even now, it’s hard to believe this is the story that God has written. This is not what I would’ve expected. And I think so many of us can identify that we are living out a life that we didn’t expect things that have happened or that we wanted to happen that never happened.
I’ll start with when I came to Christ. I was a young girl. I was raised in the church, and I was in Sunday school from the youngest I can remember. In church, you know, things weren’t perfect. Even in my home, there wasn’t much teaching about Jesus.
Most of that was coming to church on Sundays, but I knew I needed a savior at eight. So I count that at eight years old, but we weren’t a family that wrote the date in the Bible or anything like that. So that’s really as best I can remember that I was eight, going forward and pastor, and getting baptized and all that.
But then, in my teen years, I did some teen things as a 15-year-old but rededicated my life. So, from that time on, owned my faith as an adult. You understand what you can as an eight-year-old. Then we grow older and almost have to make those decisions over again as an adult wrestling through some of these issues that seem so simple at eight years old, right?
Kelly: Oh, absolutely. Yes.
God’s unexpected journey for Lisa
Lisa: But, fast forward, I married my college, well, I married my high school sweetheart, so we actually were in Sunday school together. We met in seventh grade, but he was just another boy across the room, and then by high school, we were in a big group of friends. He was a surfer.
We’d go to the beach together, and he was my first date. He was my only date. We went to college together very intentionally because we knew we had a future together. We married sometime in college and ended up with seven children, which is another unexpected thing.
This was not in the plan, but God will tender our hearts and ask us to step out in faith in ways we never thought we could.
So, I have seven children. Five are launched and have their own families, and I am still actively parenting two. My two youngest are at home. My story … I think when we talk about shattering loss and how God really gave me a heart for the woman who’s walking that started 11 years ago.
Shattering loss changed everything
I went to bed happily married and woke up a widow and single mom to my seven children. There were no signs of symptoms, but I woke up in the early morning to my husband’s funny breathing on the pillow next to me and called 911 and started CPR.
The paramedics were there within minutes, and I thought, “okay, he’s in good hands. He’s going to be mad when he wakes up and finds out he has to miss work today.”
But he never recovered.
I went into the ER, and they called me into that room you never wanna go into, and the ER doctor said, “we’ve worked on him for over two hours and have never been able to revive him.”
I went home to tell my kids that was it, that their dad was in heaven. After that, life in every sense fell apart, just shattered into a thousand pieces. It would never be the same again.
Kelly: Wow. That definitely would cause your life to absolutely shatter. Being so young and loving him so much pretty much immediately. You went on a date, and you both were so young and full of life and dedicated your lives to one another. Then you have this family, and like you said, your life took a completely unexpected turn, which is even more of a blessing once you’re walking that path.
But then you wake up in the middle of the night, and oh my goodness, as you put it, you went to bed married and woke up a widow. Happily married and woke up a widow.
Brokenness led her back
But, first, I’m just so sorry you had to deal with that, Lisa. I just can’t imagine, and I’m sure you’ve had many people say that to you.
I will say, though, the encouragement, inspiration, and help just even by being here today as we talk through your story. And knowing you and your passion for writing and reaching women, I’m sure that you’ve provided a lot of comfort to a lot of people, and have really blessed them.
I’m so gracious that you’re here today to talk about this. Going back quickly, whenever you’re young, I just wanna point out one thing, which I think is neat. So you’re eight years old and like, yes, I love Jesus. Your family is going to church and you know about him, but it’s not like writing it in a calendar.
I completely identify with that. I feel like my family had always talked about Jesus, that it was kind of like well-known that you’re Christian, right? That you just know him, say prayers and that’s it. So you can’t really pinpoint the day. But like you said, when you were a teenager, after you come to know him a little bit as you were young, but it never left you just like he tells us it never departs from you.
But once you make some mistakes, dealing with all the hormones and teenage everything, you know? I completely identify with you there. Once you realize, once you see a little bit of the brokenness that you are and then go back, it has a little bit of a different meaning right?
Lisa made a choice
Lisa: Yeah, for sure.
I was doing things I shouldn’t have been doing, and I really felt the before and after, and I didn’t get saved at 15. I was saved at eight but wasn’t living fully for the Lord. I was wandering from him, and was really at a point where I could have kept wandering.
Maybe not come back, or I could say, “no, this is the truth.” So he is my savior, and I desperately need him. It’s interesting because I was actually at a youth camp. It was one of those things where everybody was emotional, and I never went forward. They were like, “come forward or pray.”
I never went forward. I stayed right in my seat.
But I remember praying, “Lord, do not let this be a mountaintop experience.” Just praying that over and over. Then I went home.
Dan and I were not dating. We were really good friends. Then, a few weeks after returning school had started in the fall, he said, “You’re so different. You’re so different.” So isn’t that interesting? Somebody who knew me so well could see the difference.
God puts people together for a purpose
Kelly: Wow. That is interesting. And you weren’t dating him then, he already saw the change in you, though, being your friend. Wow. And especially him too, you know, seeing that change in you maybe sparked a little something extra in him too. You never know. I feel like God really does put people together. It just seems like he really put you together for a wonderful purpose.
It’s just amazing how he can work in our lives. So, I definitely did not want to pass over what happened with Dan in that story. I just wanted to talk a bit about you returning to God when you were a teenager.
That’s so funny that you say that Dan really recognized it. I think that’s great. But you started your life together and had seven children, so that’s completely devastating. So share what you feel comfortable sharing.
Grief was different for each family member
I don’t wanna take you too much through every step of that, but how was the family unit?
How did you guys pray together?
Did your kids embrace Jesus, or was it kind of like they were questioning things?
Or do you feel like you were a very tight unit?
Lisa: When Dan died, my children were four years old, and then my oldest had just finished his freshman year of college. So they were at all different points and after he died, you know, it’s hard enough walking through your own grief, but then trying to navigate and shepherd your children through theirs, it’s really just overwhelming.
People will ask me, “how do I do this?”
I think the only answer I can give you because every family is different and looks different, is to just authentically grieve together.
Whatever that looks like, don’t feel like you have to show up all put together for your children. Don’t feel like that or make them feel like they have to, either.
I remember sitting down with my kids and saying, grief is going to look different for each of us, and we’ll have to have a lot of grace with each other this year. That’s how naive I was. Thinking it would just be a year until we got back on our feet. And it did look different for each of us.
Every day in the car, my four-year-old would randomly start crying and saying, “I miss daddy. I miss daddy.” Sometimes at very ironic times.
Grief struck in both dark and happy moments
I remember a few months after Dan died, my daughter went to a Florida event, it used to be called Junior Miss, but now it’s distinguished young women. It’s a scholarship program (slightly a pageant). She won for Florida. We had never done pageants, but this had streamers coming down and the flowers being handed to her. All the kids are going up on stage, and I’m holding my daughter on my hip.
With all this music and confetti coming down, she is whispering in my ear, saying, “I miss Daddy. I miss Daddy.”
That is such a picture of grief. These events are happening, these milestone events, and then in the midst of that is this gaping, painful loss.
It’s never one or the other. It is both coexisting.
How did my family react to that? I think I just tried to walk them through as best I could. We did a lot of reading aloud together. We were a homeschooling family and had the opportunity and the time to have that Bible time together every morning.
I remember we started reading books on heaven. Everything from picture books, from my little ones to bigger books with my older ones.
I kept an open conversation. I tried to keep a safe place for them to just be able to share and talk however it looked. It looked different for my daughter than for my teen sons and my six-year-old and four-year-old.
Grief still looks different
Kelly: Oh my goodness. I am sure it looks so different and probably still looks different for them in every stage you go through together.
I love that you pointed out that you have to authentically grieve together. Because there is no way that you’re going to have that strength for all of them, right?
You want to make sure that you can because you want to shelter them from all these big feelings and all this pain. But, like you said, the perfect picture of grief … wonderful thing happening, missing her father and whispering it. But I think that’s amazing.
I think that you guided them in such a wonderful way and I bet that a lot of women listening to this are probably thinking the same thing. “I don’t know how I’m going to do this. I’m just going to do it with them, and that’s it.”
That’s just a wonderful guide for somebody who’s kind of lost, because it would be impossible to really carry them through each thing while you’re feeling it yourself.
How did you handle that? How did you handle those really tough moments and maybe even angry at God or frustrated with him?
Totally overwhelmed, Lisa met God every day
Lisa: I was overwhelmed in every sense of the word, and I think when life falls apart, you know, we get to a place of overwhelm where we’re having decisions and massive change, hard emotions, and questions. I would get up every morning and get them settled and started for the day.
Then I would get into my minivan.
I say some people have a prayer closet, but I have a minivan. I would go around the corner to this little park and just park. In that quiet minivan where nobody could slip a note under the door or come into my room, I would just cry out to God. Sometimes I cried out audibly. Sometimes, I would journal. Every day I journaled.
But I would have that time to unburden my heart with everything I had been carrying. All the worries I had, all the fears, the missing, and the loneliness, just all of it. I never went through anger.
Desperate for God
I did go through questioning God, saying, “Why would you take such a good dad?”
Some of the ironies of the situation were that his mom, who was not in very good health at all, the last thing he had been doing was paperwork for her. Not that I wanted anything to happen to her, but just the irony of life. He died suddenly so young, and she was there with us for several more years, which was a grace.
I would get alone in my car. I would cry out to God and pour that out to him then open the Bible.
I happened to be reading through the Bible for a year, but I had not started that year doing that, Dan had actually been doing it.
I was just desperate for the Lord. I was desperate for the word more than I needed my own food.
I wouldn’t look for a passage that would meet or speak to me, but I would just open to that day’s reading. It never ceased to amaze me how God would meet me wherever I was reading, whether it was Leviticus, Psalms, or one of the gospels.
God reminded her of who he is
God would meet me on the words of that page. He would remind me who he is and how he cares for us, and it would give me enough hope to go back into the house and parent for that day. It was not enough for the week. I would have to go back the next day and do it over. It became like that daily manna.
I would go out and pick up my daily manna, which was enough for that day.
When we say God is enough, that’s what it looks like. It’s not like God is enough, and we never have to go through anything hard. It’s that God is enough to get through this moment, to get through this difficulty, get through this day, and it won’t always feel like this.
I kept telling myself that it won’t always feel like this, but I did have to have that hope to get through each day. Until we got our fitting and until my smile came back.
Daily walk through the pain
Kelly: Wow. That is so perfect to say how he’s given it to you for that day in the daily walk with him. Because it’s so unknown. When you say you were overwhelmed in every sense, I think that is an overwhelming piece of it. You think, when is this going to go away? When is it going to lighten up? When is it ever going to get better?
But I think you made a good point that you surrendered every day. You made that time, no matter how busy you were, no matter how intense or overwhelmed you felt. You made that time in the morning or whenever it was and took everything to him. Which I think is a really great thing.
Many women who listen to this podcast struggle with making time and even feeling good enough for God to meet them where they are. A lot of them feel broken and that they don’t deserve it. But also, especially if they’re angry at God for something that has happened.
How can you surrender your pain to God?
What would you say helped you to be able to lay it at his feet whenever you went there? Did it come very easy to you because you had been in the scriptures and walking with God through it? Or was there something or anything extra that you did to maybe help the woman listening now who says, “It’s so hard for me to just surrender?”
Lisa: It is for sure too hard for us. We were not made for death, divorce, disease, or devastation like this. We weren’t made for it. So when these things happen, it does overwhelm us. That old saying that God won’t give you more than you can handle. That’s just not true.
We can absolutely find ourselves in circumstances that are too hard for us.
I remember writing at the top of my journal every day for well over a year,
THIS IS TOO HARD. I CANNOT DO THIS.
All caps, bold, underlined. That was the reality of my heart. I’m sure people looked at me and thought, you’re so strong.
But I knew what was going on inside. I knew the war raging in my thoughts and my emotions.
I could feel the enemy and felt like the enemy was trying to get his toe into our family and just pull it apart.
This was not Lisa, who had everything together and was doing everything right. This was Lisa, who was desperate for the Lord.
Listen to God’s nudge
Sometimes I think we can feel that nudge to meet with the Lord, open the word, meet with him in prayer, maybe read a devotion or read the Bible, and we think it’s guilt. You think God is guilting us like, “You haven’t met with me. You’re so bad.”
But it’s not, it’s wooing us like somebody who loves us, somebody who is holding out their hands and says, “I have everything you need. Come to me.”
It makes me weep. Because I remember … I remember those days when I just was desperate. And he says, “Come to me.”
So I think for the woman listening to this right now and saying, “I’ve stayed away from God, and I haven’t opened the word. I am mad,” to just listen to that nudge. Open it and give God a chance to meet you where you are.
It won’t look all tidy, and everything won’t be wrapped up with the bow that first day. God will meet you where you are.
He will give you hope. He will encourage you and remind you how much he loves you. He will remind you of his promises and his faithfulness, and that’s how we do life.
We’re not promised that life will be easy. But, we’re promised that God will be faithful.
Bible Verses for Encouragement
Matthew 11:28, NKJV, “Come to Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Resources for You
Lisa’s book Life Can Be Good Again helps women to put their world back together after it falls apart.
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